Sin: Easy To Do, Not So Easy To Define?

Last night we bagen a discussion on the topic of Sin. We began by going around and listeing to people define sin personally.

-"Something that keeps you from a the Higher Power (being)."
+Evil?
-Immorality
-That which hurts God

-"Anything that tetracts from, or fail to hold to God's vision for the world.
+Is this more than moraility?

-"Anything that falls short of 'Love God/Love Neighbor'".

-"NOT working towards/being true to the person into whom God is making you."
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Other comments:

-Sin originates from 2 places: Pride (ego) and Apathy (failure to act)
+The assumption then is that himility was the prefered motivator enacted out of love?

-Sin is not a "list" of spicific "no-no's"
+The Church has focused on a "list" of what is sinful to teach it's followlers.
+This leads to the inevitable Hiarchy of sins, even though we claim that all "sins" are equal if there were/is a list
+This also leads to leagalistic and binding faith!
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We Asked, "if love is the standard for how to live sinless/not commit sin(?)" Who decides what is "loving"?

-Quote from Frederick Buechner: "sometimes love is doing something for someone, and sometimes its leaving them alone"
-It was stated that something like killing is always a sin
+Then it was brought up that the theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, was part of an assasination attempt on Hitler because he thought that was the most loving thing to do!
+Brought up the question about how subjective love/sin can be perhaps?

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SOMEONE then got in an imaginative segway about cults:) you know who you are!
This SOMEONE (with some additions of another fellow sidetracker) made us all laugh for a wonderful amount of time! It was nice to be reminded that serious conversations doesn't always mean we have to be solomn and serious in our talks! Thanks SOMEONE!!!!!

-There was an interesting closing comment off of the sidetrack:
--"There seems to be a fine line between the ritualistic cults, and the ritualistic Church????? Any "truth" to that?

and that's where we left off...

NOT MEETING NEXT WEEK: Nov. 21
Happy Thanksgiving
Leave comments and continue conversatoin, we would love to hear from those who weren't present...

Absolute Truth...Or Perhaps Not So Absolute

This week was an offshoot continuation of our previous conversation.

We began talking about other religions and Christianity being the "only way" (where we left off), and quickly transferred into a different lane on a similar road. Some comments:

-Doesn't all religions claim "absolutes"?
+ The main 3 (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism), yes, others (Buddhism, Hinduism, Wicca, etc..)not as much.

-It was pointed out that the famed apologeticist, Josh McDowell mentioned that Absolute Truth seemed to be taking a shift.

-"The problem with "Absolute Truth", is that by definition, everything else is "wrong".
+That causes discomfort in some people.

-The question was asked, "When did 'truth' stop evolving like everything else?"
+"Perhaps that's what is happening now? Like the reformation, someone needed to be the plow to uproot the status quo, perhaps now we (as individuals and a community?)are the plow!"

-We stated that we valued new perspectives on God, Esp. since that is a stated goal of this group, but was stated beautifully that, "We can't get a new perspective on God standing still."

-We began speaking about responsibility of Christians.
+A lot of this centered around issues with the earth/Environment
2 VERY thought-provoking Comments I Caught:
+"I endorse a pantheistic view which sees God reflected in all things. God is revealed in and made up the full panoply of Creation and the creatures on it. I don't worship Creation but rather see God within and to harm it or the organisms that make it up, to not be proper stewards, is to blaspheme against God and almost the very definition of sin."
+"Christianity has strayed away from its counter-cultural roots and now serves the status quo and to prop up the interests of corporations. Christianity itself is operating almost as a corporation that is more interested in marketing itself and getting more numbers than truly acting as the positive force it should be. I find all religions to be a beautiful thing and I hate to see Christianity reduced to such a role."

-A comment: "do we show (communicate) the message death and forget about [the message] of hope and life [in our actions]?"

-Tim Conder came to Campbell and made a rattling comment that was mentioned: "Christians are way to nice! The Ch. should be the enemy of anyone or anything that takes advantage of others!"
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We ended with the Question: "What do we do with John 14:6--'I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except by me.'"?

sorry for the delay on the recap!

Coexist

This week we discussed a tough topic: the topic of differing religions.

Many great points were brought up in the group! It's exciting that so many great points were expressed, but sad that my hand could not keep up on the note-taking. As always please correct, add to, or subtract anything that is posted wrongly.

Several stories were told of personal encounters dealing with other religions. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that an underlying thought was that EXPOSURE to other religions, especially personal experience with persons of differing faiths than our own (and even the lack of those experiences), help inform our personal beliefs on other religions. It was mentioned that "Exposure breaks down barriers." Maybe that relationship/understanding should be explored more. Perhaps that is something that you want to discuss on the comments section, or next week as we decided to continue on this topic next week!

-It was interesting that many said that they were taught to TOLERATE other religions growing up. (I put that in all caps because that word pops back up later).

-Most of us agreed that we were also taught that our religion is right while all other religions are wrong.

-A comment was made that Christianity is more open, because it is not inherited in the same way that Islam and Hinduism is. (we didn't explore the obvious question..."is that a true statement in our lives?")

-The point was made that "TOLERANT" has a loaded connotation. If we tolerate, then it is implied, "I'm right and you're wrong, but I'll allow you to _______(speak, believe, stand in my presence, etc...)

+it was said that there are levels of tolerance depending on the similarities or relationships between the religions in question. (what they hve in common)

-"ACCEPTANCE goes beyond TOLERANCE."

-"how do we get out of the 'we're right and they're wrong' mindset and begin to move from tolerance to acceptance?"

+Is this a goal that we should have?

+how does that work in relation to the Christian idea of conversion? Evangelism?

- One person said, "It all comes back to love your neighbor/love God (greatest commandment)."

+"the idea of acceptance is the idea of being closer to loving the way Christ loved."

+ Because of this understanding, it was also followed up that, "the goal (whatever it is) begins with relationships and [genuine] conversations."

-A good question: "where do [Christians] draw the line?"

+Where is the line? Is there a line that should be drawn?

-"Is there a line on acceptance/exclusivity and pluralism?

- We have this idea of "dualism--> compartmentalizing 'this is Christian/Christ and this [other] is not.]

-What does this idea of dualism do to inform "the line"?

-We agreed that loving others comes first but discussed the relationship between "evangelism and acceptance."

+It was said "that loving someone means loving them holistically (body, mind and soul)."

+how does that inform evangelism?

+another added to the last statement, "that it means building holistic relationships!"

-"What is our concept of evangelism?

+one stated that his concept was, "save them now in this life because I can't promise them eternity."

-Something that was touched on, but not explored was the schism in "kingdom of God" focuses.

+Is it eternal (heaven and hell) or is it earthly/temporal?

-"It all comes back to what YOU believe [individually]. "

+"evangelism is voicing/making your beliefs known.?" (I don't remember if that was stated as a statement or a question.)

-It was pointed out that there seems to be a relationship between "evangelism" and an "agenda".

+has the focus flipped from discipleship in Christianity to Evangelism?

-Finally it was asked, "Are all religions man's attempt to understand/communicate [the divine/God]?"

(this actually was said much earlier in the discussion, but I didn't want it to get lost with not fitting into other blurbs).

The discussion will continue next week. This is a tough topic, and the group did a good job keeping our purpose of respectfulness in the midst of tough discussion!

keep the conversations going!

Discussing Our "Dark Times": Ma Teresa Joins Our Discussion Group

At long last we get to talk about the article about Mother Teresa that was in Time Magazine.

We started off talking about where her journey, mission, and struggles met with our own. Several interesting things were mentioned:

-The lives that she touched

+ Shane Claiborn speaks of the impact on his life during his time with the Mother's ministry in his book The Irresistible Revolution: Living as an Ordinary Radical

-It was mentioned that the letters from the lady saint could be challenging to a person's concept of God.

+ It can dishevel one to hear that someone so Holy and devout could not hear God (focus that statement less on her and more on God not speaking).

+It's Disheartening that she was doing what we SHOULD be doing, yet God was not speaking to her!

-The question was asked: "I wonder if she was looking in the wrong place?"

+"Often times we see what we want to see, and where we are looking is not in the right place."

-Some saw hope in her story

+If someone that devout can have such strong doubts...it can be comforting

-"Perhaps she got as close to God as humanly possible and what she was feeling, her "dark times" was really the void between the limitations of Human and Holy!

-The Article talks about the "divine spark" that led her into her mission/purpose...of that Holy encounter. But perhaps that that spark of spiritual warmth did not sustain.

+It was asked: "do we force God and that spiritual feeling (warm, happy, comfortable, etc...)?

+It was pointed out that even through the "dark times" she never strayed from her goal! That was admirable!

=The question was asked: Could we do that in her position?

-It was expressed: "The idea of the [type?] of relationship we're supposed to have with God is an idea we've created!

+Do we create our own reality w/in our spiritual(re)ality????

We then switched gears to talk about our own personal "dark times", What they are/have been, where we are now, and how those times shape us.

-For many the "dark times" centered around a lack of divine direction/guidance/intervention.

+lack of calling, or a calling without the opening of doors/opportunities and divine intervention.

+many times this was because of the given expectations on us (by society, family, church, etc...)

=what does this say about OUR expectations of God??

-For some it is being burnt out on Religion/Christianity (in particular).

+religious people and organizations have turned some off

+Anger towards what the religious organizations/institutions were teaching

=felt like it never brought them closer to God

-MOSTLY OUR "DARK TIMES" CENTER AROUND QUESTIONS!

-"Do we get caught up so much with how life is supposed to be that we stop living it?"

+"Do we live too much off of the expectations?" (our own and the expectations of others)

=We get depressed when we continually compare ourselves to those expectations!

-"We see God through ourselves! Through our own filters!

+Filters change- does that make our view of God with those previous/current/future filters WRONG????

There was so much good discussion happening, we hated to end! Feel free to jump in and let the conversations continue!

OK! Now....It's Personal!

First off, once again we have pushed the article back another week. We are going to talk about it this week people:) No, because of the response of several people who could not make it, we agreed to leave the article of Mother Teresa until next Wed.

So what happened this week? Well, as the title implies, it was (in this reporters personal opinion) pretty personal. We talked openly and honestly about some things going on in our lives. This was a very good night of conversation!

However, this makes recapping the meeting hard because of our agreement that what is said that is personal stays within the group. So this blog post will be open that anyone who wants to share something that we talked about that was personal to them, please feel free to place that in the comment section. That way it will be your own words and discretion.

One topic we did discuss that was more general was the fact that, even in the postmodern/emergent/ supposedly free to express your beliefs, world, there is polarization. There is now, like the more traditional mainstream realm, a seemingly left and a right (or maybe an up and down since the terms left and right wing is modern lingo). That just shows how much more important our group is (based on respect, freedom, exploration, and discussion), and how much of a need there is for something like what we are doing!

In addition, I will link one thing we talked about, because Mary talks about it on her own blog. We spent time discussing this issue in our own lives.

If you weren't present, this would be a really good post for any topics/questions that you would like to share to begin conversation about that. There has been a couple of discussions that some have had that may want to open to the group? That is always an option! So, just like Wed. night...wherever the winds may take us!

The Big White Question Mark In The Room

Ok, so we tabled the discussion on the Mother Teresa Article until next week. So CLICK HERE FOR NEXT WEEK'S TOPIC AND PLEASE READ BEFORE WED.

Instead we talked about some things going on in our lives. One topic that we we spent some time on was how our lives seem to have so many questions, and so few answers. This seems to be a place that many of us found ourselves departing with the traditional Church.
Things we said/asked

-Is asking those hard questions about our spirituality bad?
+ if not, then why is it discouraged in churches?
+ Why is open dialogue/thought not encouraged and taught?
-We have both a need and an OBLIGATION to question everything?! both personally and corporately. This includes the religious institutions, and institutional thinking/teaching.

-What about having doubts/doubting?
+everyone has doubts, just some people get so good at ignoring them that they forget they have them!
+we're told not to doubt/question, but instead, "just have faith".
=what does that really mean?- Don't question when logic/answers run out, but then just believe what you're being told regardless?
= how can we NOT DOUBT? We are told not to have doubts, but we can't just turn it on and off. WE can't NOT DOUBT!
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We then moved onto the topic of authenticity. We said that this is something that our group values highly and is something that is vital to our group working.

-What does being Authentic mean?
+Being who you really are--What does that mean?
= One's true Personality
= Being who we really are in all we say and do
= not coming and conforming to what we think others want us to be
= Taking off all masks!

-Why do we Value Authenticity?
+"everyone around us plays politics! we all want to be liked/loved/or voted into whatever we're running for, be it some office, or prom queen/king."
+"we wear masks because we SEEK LOVE"
= "not enough love in the world/our lives=the need to wear masks."

We ended with 2 questions that we didn't finish exploring (perhaps the conversation will be continued here):

1) HOW DO WE FIND/EMBRACE THAT "PERFECT LOVE" AND SHOW COMPLETE ACCEPTANCE TO INDIVIDUALS WHO MIGHT MAKE US UNCOMFORTABLE??

2) WHERE ARE OUR LIMITATIONS IN THIS LOVE?

until next wed....

Who Are We? Who, Who? Who, Who?

This recap from last night's discussion may not be all encompasing. Due to unforseen circumstances we were forced to move locations for one night, and ended up splitting into 2 discussion groups. Please add to, or rectify anything incorrect in this recap!

This ALL is based on our experiences in a church.

Both ducussions began with the question: WHAT IS CHURCH?
-an orginization/institution
+ran much more like a buisness than not
+community?? of people with similar beliefs?
+structured/ government systems?

-a set time to come together as a "church"
+contains some "service" (worship?)
+a place to make you feel better about yourself- making us better people?
+a place to make us feel worse about ourselves- emphasis on us being "sinful"

A quote that was shared: "Sunday's from 11-12 are the most divided time in America." Is this true?

A question that was asked: Can humans, by nature, tolerate a lack of orginization or structure?
+perhaps we're afraid of not knowing, so, through the modern mindset/lens, we apply structure (based on scientific process).
+Everything is according to how we as humans have applied constructs to "reality".

The other question that was explored: HOW ARE WE DIFFERENT FROM A CHURCH (our divine conversations discussion group)?

-We allow people freedom to be themselves (can have a beer, curse, share their raw thoughts, speak their mind)--the oppertunity to be REAL (although we agreed this is what church is supposed to allow).
-NO ties to the institution
-No judgemental/better than the world/everyone else mindset
-trace is here!
-Similar belliefs is NOT what brings us together-we can have, and encourage differing ideas/thoughts/beliefs, and have to be respectful of those ideas.
+What brings us together is our willingness to explore our individual journeys???
-No Gov. system, no hired leader, a communal ownership!

Thoughts we ended on:
-we are not a "church", although we have aspects of a church, and we may be "church" for some people.
-Since we are not founded on theology, if we were a "church", we would be the "church of respect"

WE ARE STRIVING TO LIVE UP TO OUR PURPOSE: TO BE AN OPEN COMMUNITY WHERE ALL VIEWS AND IDEAS ARE WELCOME; WHERE WE SPEAK OPENLY AND RESPECTFULLY ABOUT OUR OWN JOURNEYS, SPIRITUALITY, AND REALITIES (personal, communal, national, and worldly).

Deflating the Church

This Wed. we starts deconstructing some of the things that we feel we are missing out on in the Church, and vise verse. PLEASE NOTE: this recap may come across as harsh or very negative, however, it WAS a conversation that took place and not a crusade on the church. The purpose was to better understand some of the reasons that we are in a group like Divine Conversations, and understanding where some of us have departed from the Church as a whole, or simply portions of the institution! As always, If something that you said is missed in this recap, or incorrectly presented, please add it to the comments with apologies all around!

-The Church seems to care about the smaller stuff rather than the bigger issues:

+ you can't have authentic conversations (like we do in this group) in most churches

+ people in the church are more concerned about you cursing than a lot more Important things

+ you are not allowed to be who you really are, instead you are expected to conform or mask into who they want you to be.

-What Does the Ch. care about?

+The "easy problems"--things they can take a definitive stance on without much effort on their part.

+clinging to it's traditions: type of worship, who sits where, making sure the flowers are visible,etc...

-The ch. seems to focus on the same things over and over again

-The markers for measure by the Ch. show that they are more interested in things other than spiritual growth

-Emphasizes "Blind Faith"= just believe!

-focus on the answers with no room for the real questions people have.

-don't encourage critical thinking about one's faith

-20th century American Ch. seems only interested in about the "afterlife", not the world "right now"

+American Society (capitalism) plays a part in the Ch.'s complacency?

++Like most Americans in general, American Christianity (esp. in the south), focuses on "being comfortable"

-This was brought up as a reference: What should the Ch. "Rethink"? what should we as a group...as individuals "rethink"?

-The fear factor

+both in Gov. and in the Ch.

++we are scared, so much so that we no longer take responsibility or speak out

++ Scared of what?

=fear of being ostracized

=fear of losing jobs/positions

=fear of losing comfort

=fear of being outside the status quo

=others?

-The ch. doesn't seem to care about the individual's voice, and doesn't allow us to speak.

-Is it the Ch. we have a problem with, or the INSTITUTION of the Ch.? or both?

+THERE ARE STILL GOOD THINGS ABOUT THE CH.!

+THERE ARE STILL GOOD PEOPLE IN THE CH.!

PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS PART ONE OF AN ONGOING DISCUSSION WE WILL CONTINUE NEXT WEEK! NEXT WEEK WE WILL ASK NEW QUESTIONS LIKE, "WHAT'S GOOD ABOUT THE CH.?"

Email any other questions you would like posted in advance about us/the Ch. for the blog topic for next week to conversationsdivine@gmail.com look for that post monday or tues. of next week!

LET THE CONVERSATIONS CONTINUE!

Deconstructing the News: Public and Private Schools

Last Night's discussion centered around the News and Observer article for last Sunday. we began asking a lot of questions:

-Are kids really coming home and saying "I'm being persecuted for my Christian beliefs" at school? If so, could this be a case of kids blowing something out of proportion to get their family upset/ involved?
-Who is persecuting these Christian children? Individuals or the institution?
-"my question the [the parents] is what are you doing at HOME to teach your kids about their faith instead of putting them [in private schools] that will do all of the work for you?"

One statement that was made made was from a person working in the public schools in the area who said, "I've never had a Christian child come up to me and talk about being persecuted, but I have had a Muslim child with that complaint!"
-the question was asked, "what does THIS say about Christians in the school system?"

One statement that was made was that, "I find myself trying to defend myself to others in the sense that when I say I'm a Christian I have to say, 'but I'm not THAT kind of Christian."

We then switched gears a little and tried to understand better what lies underneath the decisions being made. One big thing we talked about was fear being a motivating factor!
-fear of disillusionment in their faith/beliefs?
-fear of change?
We asked the question, "are these signs of a shallow faith?" Since we are exploring our faith/beliefs/understandings in this group in order to get deeper into our own beliefs!

We talked about the flaw in our group gathered last night was that we were all looking at it through similar lenses. We discussed trying to understand the decisions made in the article, and decided the importance to continually practice seeing issues and ideas through other lenses as not to be judgmental! We stated that we wished that there was someone there that could dialogue with us from an opposing viewpoint. WE WELCOME THAT ONE HERE ALSO! FEEL FREE TO POST YOUR COMMENTS IN OUR CONTINUING DISCUSSION!

OTHER COMMENTS/QUESTIONS:
-How can EVANGELICALS wall themselves in, away from the world?
-Can REAL learning/education occur when you receive ideas with not opposing or differing ideas are present to challenge what's being taught?
-we agreed that the bigger problem is that ALL schools, both private and public, have room for reform in America

FINALLY, we asked ourselves the question, how do we as a community of people, as well as individuals, keep from pulling into our own beliefs and forming a safe bubble where we can take refuge and cut ourselves off from the world.

our goal: Continual ACTIVE dialogue with the world around us!

PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION ON THIS BLOG POST! WE ARE WELCOME AND AFFIRMING OF ALL IDEAS ON THIS ISSUE. AS MENTIONED ABOVE, WE WOULD LIKE TO HEAR ALL VIEWPOINTS IN THIS DISCUSSION!